Monday, 29 June 2009

Moving this blog to Posterous

To quote myself:

"I've been thinking about migrating my original blog off of blogger and on to something like a hosted Wordpress site or something similar. Since moving to a Mac in March, I've also found that blogging without Windows Live Writer just isn't the same either ;-) But then I find myself getting caught up on what theme to use, different widgets and all that complication... and all I really want is something clean and simple (I'm sure most of you only read my RSS feed anyway) where I share news, ideas and other things I've found and have the odd conversation too. I had discovered Posterous a while ago and thought it looked interesting, but then did nothing about it. So, here I am now! Welcome to my new blog."
If you subscribe to my Feedburner RSS feed, I'm pointing that at my new Posterous' feed already.

Well, it looks like Google's Blogger outlasted Posterous (who were acquired by Twitter)... you can find my Posterous archive on WordPress.com at jamesdellow.wordpress.com.

My most current blog is now self-hosted hosted by Scriptogr.am, at chieftech.com.au.


Us Now Sydney on 9th July

I know I'm repeating myself, but just a reminder that if you live in Sydney and either haven't watched the Us Now documentary yet or simply would like the chance to discuss it further, then join us on the evening of Thursday 9th July at the Australian Technology Park* for a special community screening.







Its a free event, but you do need to register - and of course, don't forget to tell your friends about it. We're using #usnowsydney as our hashtag.
*We only confirmed this new venue over the weekend and it means we've increased our capacity from 30 to 100 people! :-)

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Tuesday, 23 June 2009

If it isn't broken, why fix it? (New patterns in government)

These are the slides from my PublicSphere presentation yesterday:

BTW There is a great column in the UK's Independent newspaper by Headshift's Lee Bryant about "rebooting Britain" that reflects some of the points I made around the need to understand the potential for Government 2.0 from a different viewpoint, which naturally drives us towards a different approach to the way government and the community work together.

UPDATE: You'll find more notes about my presentation on the Headshift Australasia blog. Video recordings from the event are now available too.

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Friday, 12 June 2009

Intranets and social computing - first mover disadvantage?

As you may know, in the past I worked at Ernst & Young in their Centre for Business Knowledge, the group who are responsible for the “KWeb” intranet. Outside of the top tier accounting firms (who have always understood they are involved in knowledge work), I’ve yet to find any large organisations with such a cohesive or advanced intranet, so I like to track public case studies and articles about Ernst & Young’s intranet and knowledge management program to see how it is progressing since I left in 2004.

Anyway, I was interested to read on the Intranet Benchmarking Forum’s blog that they had recently attended a leadership conference to provide a briefing on:

the latest trends amongst advance intranets and to parlay that information into a strategic roadmap for a next-generation intranet.
Alas, we don’t hear much about the audience’s reaction to these trends. I wonder how well E&Y’s intranet does benchmark against those trends, because there wasn’t really a lot there that struck me as new. I must admit this actually irritates me slightly - and I’ll apologies if there is a touch of arrogance here - but it really is time that the intranet industry takes a long hard look at itself and admits that its not really a case that some organisations are facing a set of new trends, they are really just catching up with innovation in other organisations that’s been taking place over the last decade or more.

Lets look at this apparently emerging issue about the “conflict between the desire to open up will be tempered by risk management and control”, as by its very nature the KWeb intranet is an open system that runs primarily on user-generated content. While I worked there, E&Y had hundreds of unmoderated, unfiltered discussion forums and thousands of project team databases. I don’t recall any major incidents, although I do remember some of the conversations about e-commerce getting quite heated! The only moderation processes that did exist was for the minority of ‘highly filtered’ knowledgebases, like PowerPacks - however, this moderation was for content quality.

Fast forwarding to the present day, this is only appearing to be a trend now in other less progressive organisations as Web-based collaboration tools (like SharePoint) have started to muscle into the traditional intranet space (e.g. static pages of content pushed at users to eagerly consume).

But its not a trend pointing to the future, its an indicator that you are lagging behind in how you imagine what an intranet should be. On the other hand I suspect Ernst & Young and those like it aren't lacking vision, but they may be struggling to take advantage of new Web 2.0 inspired enterprise technologies because of what’s in place already.

Another former employer, CSC, is a large organisation and presents another interesting case study from this point of view. They have a well established extranet, rather than an intranet, with a portal as a primary front end to multiple Web-based systems and sub-sites. However, while they are in the process of adopting social computing tools they face the challenge of integrating them into that existing Web 1.0-style extranet infrastructure.

I've seen similar situations in other large organisations I've worked with, particulary those that already valued collaboration and that had already deployed first generation Web-based collaboration tools.

From this I think there are in fact two key positions to understand:
  1. Progressive, early adopter organisations may now be at a disadvantage at a technology level, because they have lots of expensive legacy infrastructure to deal with - however, the culture is much better prepared to adopt a social computing-based intranet, so you can use that to your advantage. Luckily social computing can help make that transition in a cost effective way.
  2. Laggard organisations (and smaller organisations that never had access to enterprise groupware in the first place) have a temporary advantage to get ahead of the original early adopters if they can get past the cultural and business political issues that stop them from introducing new collaboration and social computing-based intranets. Its a lot harder to bootstrap culture change, but with a bit of effort you can fly under the radar at the technology level with social computing if you try. But fundamentally, you have to reinvent what the intranet means to your organisation in order to move forward.
So, what’s your organisation - an original early adopter or are a laggard?

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Tuesday, 9 June 2009

My Enterprise 2.0 Experts Profile on Enterprise2Open

Martin Koser (aka Frogpond) has posted an experts profile about me on the Enterprise2Open blog. It covers my views on:

  • The core concept of the Enterprise 2.0 idea;
  • The potential of the Enterprise 2.0;
  • Challenges, threads and issues.
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Sunday, 7 June 2009

Would the Slow Wide Web still be revolutionary?

Its quite interesting watching someone use some 50 year old IT equipment to connect to the Web - the amazing thing is that it still works and in this case we see words from Wikipedia appear on a text-based browser slowly transmitted as a final step over an antique modem:




But if the Internet was restricted this way today - delivered at the speed of this antique modem - would something like Wikipedia have been able to have such a revolutionary impact as it has today? I wonder.


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Is this the shape of the Wave?


Having cut my collaboration and knowledge management teeth in a heavily Lotus Notes orientated environment, but also at a time when the Web was making its first attempt at coming to power (i.e. the dot com boom) I really want to listen to what someone like Ray Ozzie has to say, but find it hard to take his views as a credible perspective.

For example, there is perhaps a ring of truth about his comments about the overstated potential for Google Wave, reported in the FT's TechBlog:

Wave is just too big and complex a system. Google’s engineers had no choice but to take this approach given the grandeur of their vision, but in the process they have come up with something that will fail to get adopted in the fabric of the Web.
I mean, I think Gmail is the best email application ever. Full stop. I love the Ninja theme :-)

But while it might set the benchmark for email user interfaces, functionality and even changed our view about email quotas, it hasn’t changed the underlying architecture of email.

Google Wave is much more ambitious. But in the long tail of Web innovation, for every uber-developer at Google there is an army of part-time coders tweaking and hacking away at their own vision of next generation [insert application type here]. And in between there are plenty of vendors trying to get a of the corporate wallet share with their own Web-like, but Web 2.0-not products.

Still, I don’t see much from Ozzie these days. I don’t see him online experiencing Web 2.0 much either. The people at Google on the other hand are accessible, active and living Web 2.0.

Maybe its just a changing of guard? People like Ray Ozzie and others I’ve admired like Tom Davenport have helped prepare me for the emergence of Web 2.0 and I don’t want to forget that. But its now up to the new innovators, like Google and many others, who live and work in the Web to actually take us to that next stage.

Regardless of what things like Wave, Twitter, Yahoo! Pipes and all the other wonderful things we've seen emerge eventually become, they will shape the future, if not entirely redefine it in the ways we thought. I think the bigger question about Wave isn't about the technology, but if we are *all* actually ready for this kind of real-time collaboration?


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Saturday, 6 June 2009

Taking Government 2.0 to Sydney (BarCampSydney#5, Us Now Sydney and the NSW KM Forum)

On the 22nd June, Sen. Kate Lundy kicks off a Public Sphere event in Canberra that for me is going to be a fortnight or so of Government 2.0 related events in my part of the world. Quite deliberately I’ve been championing a few ideas to bring that Public Sphere conversation in Canberra to Sydney - as result a few events are forming up that should give us that opportunity:

Part of my reason for wanting to bring this Government 2.0 conversation to Sydney is so that people outside of the Federal government sector, such as those working at NSW state and local government level, the local not-profit-sector and other public institutions, can also be involved.

I think its worth explaining a bit about BarCampSydney#5, as we are really piggy backing on the (un)organising efforts of the BarCampSydney crew. However the timing with this next BarCampSydney and the Canberra PublicSphere is too good an opportunity to miss out on! So a big thank you to BarCampSydney for incorporating us into their planning.

This BarCampSydney is also being tagged as the Recession Edition or “the BarCamp we had to have”... a really relevant topic for Government 2.0, as government and other community organisations are both being expected to engage more, but in the current financial environment they need to do more with less. Practicing what we preach, coming together at a BarCamp is a great way to share knowledge and brainstorm solutions.

So, sign up for BarCampSydney#5 and let me know who you are so we make sure we get everyone who wants to talk about Gov 2.0 together on the day. You can introduce yourself here in the comments or join one of the networks for the Aussie Gov 2.0 community (Gov2.0Australia discussion, the Australian community on GovLoop and the Gov2.0Australia Ning group) and say hello there.

BTW If you’re in Australia but can’t make it to any of the Gov 2.0 related events in Canberra or Sydney, why not consider hosting a meet up or something similar yourself? One easy ideas is to simply download the Us Now documentary (or order the DVD version online if you want to project it on to a big screen) and get some people together to discuss!

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Sunday, 31 May 2009

Public Sphere #2 - Government 2.0

I've posted my suggested presentation for Sen. Kate Lundy's 2nd Public Sphere in Canberra on the 22nd June. You can either join us in person or remotely, so in the style of BarCamp why don't put your hand up and add to the conversation?
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009

I got the, don’t take the Web 2.0 out of Web 2.0 blues

To me, discussing Web 2.0 in an abstract way without reference to technology is an odd thing to do.

I should premise this statement that in IMHO, no technology exists in a vacuum. However, my viewpoint has been influenced by systems thinking and socio-technical systems theory. In this complex view of the world, technology is as much related to its environment as what we might traditionally think of as the separate social or organisational parts.

So for me, Web 2.0 has never just been about the technology. And its why I get little confused when I hear people talking about Web 2.0 and related themes, like Government 2.0, in an abstract way that attempts to push the technology into the background. Neither the social or technical parts of the system take priority, because they are related.

However, on one level this desire to push the technology of Web 2.0 into the background can be understood by observing how the meaning of ‘2.0’ has changed over time. While Tim O’Reilly might have assigned quite a specific meaning to Web 2.0, the only commonality left in how we all use it now is that “two do oh” might be best described as short hand for ‘paradigm shift’ (and yeah, its quickly become past its marketing sell by date).

Listening to people to discuss the meaning of Government 2.0 for example, I can see how it can be either read as Web 2.0 in Government or as a broader paradigm shift in our approach to Government (or perhaps somewhere in between). There is no right or wrong answer here of course... its always about how people use it and interpret meaning.

But even if we stick with a meaning that is closer to the original, I can also see that there are a number of good reasons why people want to down play the technology - for example:

  • As part of the change process for adopting Web 2.0, its better to talk about the organisational benefits and social outcomes first, and introduce the technology later;
  • So that Web 2.0 can be conceptualised and discussed in a broader organisational or social context, e.g. Human Resource Management or Open Government.

However, I sense there are others that simply believe ‘people’ are a more important factor than ‘technology’ (the get the people right and the technology will follow theory - as bad as the other side of the coin, build it and they will come theory) or that it is easier to work at an abstracted level that is focused on manifest behaviours and outcomes (the Web as a black box theory of social media).

The trouble with abstracting the technology out of Web 2.0 for those reasons only becomes a problem when you try to take action on strategies or plans based on those assumptions. Unfortunately if this wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t see failed examples of social media and social computing out there (and I suspect its one reason why there is storm brewing for reductionist social media consultants).

So, what can we do to bridge this gap between not getting technical but appreciating the relationship with the technology? Here are three suggestions:

  1. Talk in patterns, not specific tools or platforms;
  2. Use real life examples and stories to demonstrate the technology, but explain the outcomes and benefits of that particular technology (but be careful never to pitch them as ‘solutions’); and
  3. Let people learn by doing - let them use social software to solve a real problem.

Don't hide Web 2.0 away like some embarrassment. Eventually, that skeleton in the closet will get out, and its not going to be pretty (I’m talking about, selling the idea of ‘participation’ but then simply pointing them at Wikipedia and telling them to just go do it).

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Friday, 22 May 2009

An open invitation to share your knowledge with the ICTI community

On Wednesday night this week we held the official launch of ICT Illawarra (ICTI), an information and communication technology cluster for the Illawarra region in southern New South Wales, Australia. This was an important first milestone for ICTI and we were all quite excited as we were expecting up to 60-70 people to attend the launch - an absolutely fantastic turn out for an event like this in a small city like Wollongong:



The University of Wollongong Vice-Chancellor Gerard Sutton and I (as the president of the ICTI association) gave a brief introduction and then handed over firstly to the Hon. David Campbell (NSW Minister for Transport and Minister for the Illawarra) and then our key note speaker, Bob Hayward from CSC.

Bob is a very experience IT entrepreneur who was recently appointed as Chief Technology & Innovation Officer APJ at CSC. He is also on the AIIA board and is the co-founder of AsiaOnline. Bob’s presentation was received very well - so a big public thank you to him for taking the time to help us with the launch.

I know the audience for this blog spans many geographies, but if you happen to be in Wollongong or know someone in the area, please remember that you would be most welcome to join us at any of our networking meetings in the future - dates for this year are already locked in.

We actually have some ideas for future meetings based the ICTI board’s own experiences with alternative meeting formats, such as BarCamp and Growth Town. So for those of you who live and work outside of the South Coast area, if you have some knowledge, ideas or opportunities you are willing to share we have a group of motivated ICT businesses that would love to meet you.


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Wednesday, 20 May 2009

Want to watch and discuss the Us Now movie in Sydney? Register your interest

I've created a wiki page to gather names of people interested in getting together to watch and discuss the Us Now movie in Sydney. Please login and add your name to the list to register your interest. If we get enough people, then we'll work out when (soon) and where (central Sydney I expect)!
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Monday, 18 May 2009

Consuming conversations and information - guess what, we have choice

If you missed it, Lee wrote a great response to what (to be frank) was a pretty dumb post from Steve Gillmor about the death of RSS (again). I think the majority of people interested in this stuff understand that RSS is an essential part of the plumbing, but I think what Gillmor really missed was that just because he uses it one way that doesn't mean that's how everyone else wants to use it (a point central to Lee's argument) or will in fact end up using it as these social techologies continue to evolve and become more broadly adopted. The wonderful thing about RSS of course is that it doesn't matter how people access it - we have a common'ish enough protocol in RSS (and other standards) to help us join data, information and all these wonderful social tools together. Choice is great isn't it?

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Time for an upgrade? Wiki 2.0

It probably won't come as any surprise to hear that I agree with this point made by Gil Yehuda in a recent post* about the take up and maturity of Enterprise 2.0:

"For me at least, having a wiki, forum, blogs, etc. on the intranet and using a wiki, forum, blog effectively to improve the transparency and productivity of collaboration are very different indicators of progress."

I'm just waiting for other people to 'get it' that not only does simply installing the odd social computing application mean very little, but they can also be used in very different ways - a while ago I called this the grey area problem. It doesn't mean using social computing tools this way is useful or beneficial, its just not really what we imagined Enterprsie 2.0 would be like.

Similarly, Yehuda also points to a new wiki case study on Boxes and Arrows, where Matthew C. Clarke draws distinction between public, team and enterprise wikis. Yehuda chips in his two cents worth again and puts forwards an alternative break down of:

"1. enterprise-wide transparency 2. departmental-wide unity 3. team-wide coordination 4. project-wide activity (which may or may not be the same as team) 5. individual productivity enhancement tools (profile, streams, bookmarks, etc.)".

These are nice break downs, even if some what two-dimensional, but I'll support any kind of thinking that takes us beyond thinking that a wiki is a wiki is a wiki. What I mean is that its a combination what (is the tool), how (are they using it) and who (is using it).

Clarke also makes a good point about wikis disappearing:

"I predict that Wikis will disappear over the next 5 to 10 years. This is not because they will fail but precisely because they will succeed. The best technologies disappear from view because they become so common-place that nobody notices them. Wiki-style functionality will become embedded within other software – within portals, web design tools, word processors, and content management systems. Our children may not learn the word “Wiki,” but they will be surprised when we tell them that there was a time when you couldn't just edit a web page to build the content collaboratively."

Really what he is saying that wiki will become more of a verb and less a noun. However, again I'm not sure its good enough to add wiki-like page editing functionality to an information tool and expect it to behave like a social computing tool suddenly (if that's your intent). I think what's more interesting is the evolution of enterprise wikis, as they add other types of social computing features. Other social computing platforms may also threaten these wiki-based solutions by adding the capability to manage pages and documents. But in the race to be all things to all people, I really hope that the social computing technology thought leaders don't lose their way.

Hmm. Wiki 2.0 anyone?

*Hat tip to Greg Lloyd on the Social Media Today blog.

UPDATE: Nice response post from Mark Gould.

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Friday, 15 May 2009

Don't just spend less on IT, spend smart

Last Friday, writing for the Australian Financial Review (AFR) (“Anxious CIOs keep tight hold of the purse strings”, 8/5/09, p.53), Mark Jones reported on what he called “a dramatic downturn in corporate and government IT spending.

Mark included some quotes from a recent interview with Fiona Balfour, former Qantas and Telstra CIO, and Steve Hodgkinson, research director at Ovum, for his The Scoop podcast. However, listening to the podcast its not just simply a case of no spending. Instead, as Mark hints at in the headline for his article, these IT commentators suggest that its more about tightening controls on how and where money is spent. In practice, they say, this means organisations need to revise their plans to suit the new financial environment by focusing on delivering business outcomes (although you have to wonder what they were doing before, then?) and controlling the complexity of their IT systems.

Personally, when ever I hear talk about ‘standardisation’ and ‘out of the box’ I immediately think of the impact on end-users (or if you want to take a more hard nosed perspective, lets call it a negative outcome for group and individual productivity). While this won’t show up on the business case or the IT budget, I have no doubt that it will come down to people to fill the gaps in these apparently economically sound solutions. This means email volumes will continue to grow, more spreadsheet-based applications will appear and in the worst cases - where users are left with no options to ‘hack’ their solutions together - these systems will actually fail to meet their objective. And along the way, you’ll probably end up with a bunch of frustrated and ultimately unproductive people. Some of those unhappy people will be your customers too.

At the end of the podcast, Hodgkinson suggests enterprises look at the Web 2.0 cloud computing model and bring that approach inside the firewall, in terms of ideas like light touch, self-provisioning, etc. Unfortunately, Mark didn’t have time explore this line of thought but I think an enterprise Web 2.0 inspired approach is the counter balance to the problems a tightly constrained IT system will create.

This will require a little bit of out of the box thinking (dare I say it, ‘innovation’). This doesn’t mean you need to rip out your ERP system and replace it with Facebook. If this is what you think, then you really are missing the point. Its actually about enhancing and augmenting complex transactional systems with lightweight solutions so that the productivity gap I describe above can be managed as an above the line item in terms of:

  • Supporting conversational collaboration (to help with problem solving and dealing with the bumps rigid transactional systems create or have been designed to support);
  • Enhancing information management, by adding social networking and social information discovery layers; and
  • Leverage data and information from underlying transactional systems into these social computing layers.

If you happen to be a CEO reading this and your CIO gives a business case or plan based on constraint and control, make sure you ask them what’s their strategy for helping staff and customers deal with the rigid, narrow systems they are proposing. Maybe that great TCO isn’t so attractive after all?

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Thursday, 14 May 2009

Can you help - where did all the old laptops go?

As you might be aware, I spent a couple of days at Connecting Up Australia 2009 this week (you can read my notes from day 1 and day 2 over on the HOZ blog). I spoke briefly, between sessions, with Richard Stubbs from the Victorian-based Beyond Disability Inc. who:

"assist wheelchair school children ( Wheelie Kids programme) and the housebound mobility disabled (through "Housebound & Elderly Citizens Online") and their carers to have access to the Internet so they can be better informed about advocacy, home help and in house care, professional services, living skills, support groups, chat groups, online education and leisure."

Unfortunately, as Richard explained during the conference, they are finding it increasingly difficult to source the additional donated laptops that they need for their programs. They wrote this on their Website back at the end of last year:

"BDI's first laptop to NSW has gone to a 13-year-old disabled girl. TAD NSW informed us by phone that they no longer have their computer loans scheme and TAD NSW has the same issues as Beyond Disability in sourcing these disappearing laptops. Where do they go?"

It appears that as more organisations have moved to leasing, it means that rather than donating these laptops to organisations like BDI at the end of their corporate working lives, they are instead being sold or auctioned off as second hand laptops. This is causing them real problems, on top of the costs and challenges of finding other suitable computing peripherals that they already have to deal with.

So, can anyone out there help BDI or provide some assistance with finding companies that are willing to donate old laptops?

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Tuesday, 5 May 2009

ICTI is green for go on the 20th May

This has been quite literally years in the making... however, the ICT Illawarra (ICTI) cluster (follow on Twitter) is holding its official launch event on the 20th May at the University of Wollonong's Innovation Campus. See the ICTI's events page for more detail.

If you know of anyone running an ICT-related business (including areas such as digital media, for example), someone who wants to start an ICT business or who runs an ICT intensive business, please help to spread the word. We know that Wollongong-based businesses do a lot of work outside the region, so if you're based in Sydney, Canberra or beyond, you are most welcome to attend to.

We're also quite excited to have CSC's Chief Technology and Innovation, Bob Hayward (follow him on Twitter), as our key note for the evening.

We're also looking for lucky door prizes and etc, and I hear that Google might be coming to the party in that respect. However, if you can help out in some way I would love to hear from you.

BTW The reason I'm telling you all of this is that I'm currently the president of ICTI.

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Thursday, 30 April 2009

Conferences in May and June

I know I said I probably wouldn't be cross posting from the Headshift Australasia blog, but I thought you might be interested in two events where I'm presenting over the next few months:

  • Connecting Up 2009 - 11th-12th May, Sydney
  • Web 2.0 in Government Conference 2009 - 24th June, Sydney

More details over on the HOZ blog. PS Also, have you heard about Senator Kate Lundy's first 'Public Sphere' next week?

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Friday, 24 April 2009

Keeping the Enterprise RSS Dream Alive

Today, it is one year since we held the global Enterprise RSS Day of Action - with the help from many people, including vendors like Attensa and Newsgator, the aim was to raise awareness of this critical element of back end plumbing for Enterprise 2.0. I'm not going to make a big deal about the day of action today or suggest we hold another one (unless you really want too!). But, if you missed it the first time around, have a look around my blog or search the Web for further coverage.

Things finally came to head earlier this year when ReadWriteWeb posted what many thought was a premature obituary for Enterprise RSS. You can see my response post here. I still don't think Enterprise RSS is dead - personally I couldn't live without my RSS reader. But its more than that: when ever I feel overloaded by email, every time I subscribe to a search result or mashup something using Yahoo! Pipes, I imagine what the future enterprise could be like if only we had the same access to Enterprise RSS as we do email in the workplace.

BTW Don't forget to check out Newsgator's new whitepaper on the ROI of Enterprise Social Computing.

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Tuesday, 21 April 2009

Adding RSS and Twitter feeds to local council Websites only takes a few minutes!

I was talking about this the other day. Now I don't want to pick on Wollongong City Council (WCC) specifically, but as they are my local council I just thought I would demonstrate how easy it is to start Web 2.0'ifying local council Websites if people put their minds to it. Currently there are no RSS feeds on the WCC Website, but luckily the back end is all SharePoint and it does natively support RSS (thank goodness).

The low hanging fruit on the WCC Website are their media releases... so here we go:

Firstly, by pushing the native SharePoint RSS feed through Yahoo Pipes and Feedburner I can clean up the feed a little and it generally makes performance better IMHO - from this I get a nice clean RSS feed.

The next step is to push though the RSS feed out via Twitter (since that's all the rage at the moment). So, we create a Twitter account for them and a tool like RSS To Twitter.

Now, we just sit back and wait for some news to appear... :-)

Of course there is a whole bunch of useful information that could be pushed out if it was available in the right format, for example geographic information. And yes it would be better if we didn't need to use a bunch of 3rd parties tools to mash it together, but then again this is Web 2.0 in action and none of this is mission critical stuff.

BTW Wollongong City Council are more than welcome to all these bits and pieces if they want them.

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